Bayou Christian: PCUSA update

Monday, April 06, 2009

PCUSA update

Those of you in the PCUSA should be able to have some fun with this "make up your own caption contest".

LOL - it is so fun living in Louisiana

23 Lagniappe (comments):

Viola Larson said...: So I'm wondering--did the alligators put up the sign? Or is that how officials in Louisiana get rid of too many bikers? Or maybe stupid bikers. I know there are all kinds of possibilities but I won’t go there! Have a Holy week.; 12:53 AM
Josh said...: I'm not able to make any connection with the PCUSA (the best imperfect denomination I'm currently a part of), but I do find the sign amusing. I've never seen one like it anywhere else. Truly a taste of the local southern Louisiana culture!; 7:05 PM
Bill Crawford said...: How about "Follow instructions and get eaten?"

Like our good friend Brian Rihner whose congregatin submitted to a presbytery administrative commission only to have them call a meeting of presbytery the week after Easter to sever his relationship with the congregation?

He wasn't notified, his elders were waiting in his driveway when he came home from errands that day. He still hasn't heard directly from the Presbytery or its representatives. I wonder how his wife felt about learning of it this way? His kids are having a real good time with it too.

Over a half dozen of our old Mars Hill buddies have been through some form of persecution for our beliefs.

Use your imagination.; 12:10 PM
Josh said...: Oh, those logs are gators! I missed that! Now it's even more amusing.

I'm sorry to hear about Brian's negative experience. I haven't had that experience in the presbyterys in which I have served.; 12:06 PM
Bill Crawford said...: A number of our former classmates have moved on because of quite different experiences.

I'm wondering how you avoid offending anyone in San Francisco Presbytery? Maybe evangelicals are such a small minority they are no threat whatsoever.

I actually got the occasional hate mail. Go figure.; 8:34 PM
Josh said...: Who said anything about never "offending anyone"? I'm sure people offend other people in my presbytery; but I haven't heard of people here getting driven out of the denomination.

Actually, there are many evangelicals in my presbytery--I'd say about 40% (an unscientific guess, of course). I myself choose not to self-identify as "evangelical"--the word has so much baggage these days. Maybe we should just try to be followers of Jesus.; 11:30 PM
Bill Crawford said...: People don't like many words. They don't like "Christians" anymore either that word has too much baggage too?

I understand the concern but in all honesty and biblically. We are supposed to be so counter to the world that we will be "hated".

The idea that we can get along better by using the right label is not from the book but from marketing.

This is a major change for me - I was once right with you on that issue.

But people will hate the gospel no matter how we package it - the elect will love it.; 8:14 AM
Josh said...: I can barely tell that your comment is a reply to mine. Who said anything about liking words or getting along better? I simply wrote that the word "evangelical" has baggage.

My point was that if I describe myself using this word today, many people will assume things about me that are inaccurate. On hearing the word "evangelical," many people think of conservative Republican Southern Baptists (or something similar). I don't want people to make such an association with me, since I am a moderate independent Presbyterian. My concern is accuracy, not "marketing."

Biblically, the word "evangelical" is derived from the Greek word that is commonly translated "gospel" or "good news." I do consider myself evangelical in this biblical sense (gospel-centered, which is nothing less than Christ-centered, given the fact that Jesus is at the center of the gospel). Also, at the time of the Reformation, John Calvin and other reformers used the word "evangelical" as a synonym for "Protestant." (It would be anachronistic to think that it referred to American evangelicalism, as nothing American yet existed.) Again, in this historical sense, I am evangelical--that is, I am Protestant.

That said, it seems clear to me that many people today do not think of either of these two things when they hear the word "evangelical." The notion that it is unbiblical not to use the word "evangelical" (which your post seems to suggest) is itself without biblical support. In fact, not even the more common word "Christian" has strong biblical support. As Dallas Willard observes, "The word 'disciple' [student or follower of Jesus] occurs 269 times in the New Testament. 'Christian' is found only three times and was first introduced to refer precisely to the disciples." Years before the word "Christian" was coined, there were Jews who followed Jesus.

Some time ago, I had a conversation with a man who spent decades of his life as a Presbyterian missionary in Ethiopia. He told me that when he first arrived in that country, he focused on trying to make Ethiopians "Christian." He had little success. He discovered that when Ethiopians heard the word "Christian," they heard "Westerner" or "American"--and Ethiopians wanted to be Ethiopians, not Westerners or Americans.

So he changed his approach. He made the missiologically sensible move of talking with Ethiopians about becoming followers of Jesus (it's called contextualization). It turns out that Ethiopians were interested in becoming followers of Jesus--disciples. Last I heard, there are today more Presbyterians in Ethiopia than in the United States.

Jesus repeatedly says, "Follow me." I am not aware of any place where he says, "Become a Christian" (much less "an evangelical"). Hence my earlier comment: "Maybe we should just try to be followers of Jesus."; 7:49 PM
Bill Crawford said...: It's like being back in seminary. You are going to make me work hard throughout the conversation. I'm trying hard to stay "on topic" but you should remember from seminary it is very difficult for me.

So context:

I'm speaking in the sense of our original discussion - a pictoral editorial of the PCUSA. In large part inspired by the ecclesiastical attack on a personal friend and faithful servant to God's Church.

The backdrop for me is that I am having trouble with your comment that you have had no problems in your presbytery and I wonder if you have no problem that other people you know are having or had problems? I can't know the answer to that but it effecting my responses.

but moving on

I remember having similar converstations in seminary in which I also questioned the word Evangelical - I don't remember your possition then but since that time I have evolved to the possition that in internal Church debates (which is the context we are discussing now) I now self label as Evangelical.

Why? - because despite all the baggage this word with biblical roots is the word that best describes me. I also find that among Evangelicals the word is alive and well and means what it should. I happen to believe that redeeming it in the broader Church is worth the work.

I agree that this word is not always helpful in our discussions in and among the World although I think the jury is still out on how this plays out in the big picture in the US. I think right now we are letting the World (in the negative sense) dicate how we talk about ourselves - I don't think it will work to allow that to happen.

Context part 2:

Southern Baptist represents the largest protestant denomination in our country by a huge margin. Maybe we shouldn't be so dismissive? Nor should we assume the label is so bad? (you didn't say that specifically I'm just thinking out loud)

I happen to be a southern evangelical Christian, and a card carrying republican. Hey people - I'm a minority - cut me some slack ;)

Based upon what you say I understand why you would not want to be identified as such - you have every right to self identify.

I, rather foolishly, considering we all debated the use of the term even then, thought that since we were in the same "evangelical student fellowship" that we held the label together. Thanks for reclarifying that (I still have a paper on Re-Evangelical somewhere in my files).

Context part 3:

So I think we are having two different conversations (likely my fault if so) or you are following the advice of a missionary in how you do ministry among the PCUSA (which is pretty interesting no?)and I being sloppy with my language (a common and valid accusation)was overly broad in my previous comment.

I think I could poke a considerable number of holes in the "followers" vs "Christians" idea but we both know how this argument will end - me frustrated and you having out thought me once again.

I can live with it. Being brilliant is your cross to bear not mine!

My lone caution then will be this:

Changing the terminology is fine as long as you actively pursue the "making disciples" if it is practically worked out as a way to not do biblcial evangelism then it is an academic changing of words with no effect.

Ethiopa is burgeoning with Christ followers because they are followers who understand Jesus is Lord and Savior. Although that one missionary has changed language (and that is anecdotal information not statistical proof) my information shows that Ethiopia and many other African nations are experiencing explosive growth based upon classic propositional evangelism.

So how is the revival going in San Fransisco?

In other words if your choice is effective for the kingdom then you should be seeing dramatic effect in your personal ministry.

I can't answer any of those questions, I won't even propose what the measureables are on success. If you are satisfied with the answers - Amen and praise God.

Personally I see that the churches that are holding to the Evangelical approach, and using classical evangelism, and; 8:46 AM
Bill Crawford said...: oh and now our comments are longer than your blog posts. great. lol; 8:47 AM
Rev'd Chris Larimer said...: I'd be less concerned with the word "evangelical" than "Presbyterian" these days. While only tendentious ties can be made between people of similar evangelical sensibilities, the actions of the PCUSA are laid at the feet of every single elder who holds their tongue....

"Not my experience..."

Didn't Martin Niemoller say something like that once?

Fr. Chris Larimer
Babylon; 9:46 AM
Josh said...: Bill:

1) Everyone has problems, and no presbytery or denomination is perfect; I'm simply not going to pretend that I know exactly what is going on in every contentious situation.

2) I think it makes sense for you to describe yourself as "evangelical" because the word describes you accurately; I have already explained why it does not describe me accurately.

3) I am convinced that we all should be thinking of ourselves as missionaries in our postmodern Western context (to our neighborhoods and cultures, our churches and denominations--even to one another); the conviction that our immediate context is a mission field is part of what I am trying to communicate when I use the word "missional."

4) Biblical evangelism will not look exactly the same in every time and place (for example, the apostle Paul did not write exactly the same letter to every church he contacted--each faith-community had a different context).

TO BE CONTINUED; 3:19 PM
Josh said...: This post has been removed by the author.; 6:36 PM
Josh said...: 5) The notion that propositionalism has been the key to the growth of the church in Ethiopia strikes me as a doubtful proposition. If such a 16th-century approach to evangelism is working there, then I guess I was wrong in an earlier comment--followers of Jesus are not being made in Ethiopia after all (which I think would be sad, as I have no interest in convincing more people to give mental assent to propositions). I am more confident that the work of the Holy Spirit is the reason for the growth of the church in Africa (but then, I'm biased--I believe in the Holy Spirit, and I'm not a propositionalist).

6) I'm not a revivalist, and I'm suspicious of revivals (I suspect Calvin would have been, too). I do trust that God is at work in both the San Francisco Bay area and southern Louisiana. It seems to me that part of the art of ministry (and here again I have in mind being "missional") is to identify signs of God at work in a particular place, and then to partner with God and with others in this work. Every culture has things that the church can and should affirm, and every culture has things that the church can and should reject (or, perhaps, transform). In my cultural context (which I am still getting to know after 5+ years), one of the more obvious things to be affirmed is a concern about conserving God's creation; people here show far more concern for the preservation of natural beauty than they did in my previous ministry context in Oklahoma (I'm generalizing, of course). The church can come alongside people in this work and partner with them, adding life-giving theological language ("creation care," for example) that is often lacking. Something to reject is the atheism that is alarmingly common here; I suspect some of the highly educated population here simply think they are too smart for religion.

7) Increasingly, I doubt the usefulness of measuring ministry quantitatively. Sadly, many pastors and churches seem to evaluate ministry in no other way--which undoubtedly leads to frustration and clergy burnout. How might we evaluate ministry qualitatively? It seems to me that the notion that big is better is more American than it is Christian (David Fitch writes persuasively about this possibility in his book THE GREAT GIVEAWAY). My first church grew in numbers; my current church has not. I don't believe that my first church was more faithful than my current church. Also, I remember that the community of followers Jesus left behind numbered only about 120 persons--hardly a megachurch.

8) My blog posts are works of art.

Peace to you.; 6:45 PM
Josh said...: Chris:

Was your reference to Niemoller intended to liken having mixed feelings about presbyteries and their treatment of pastors to watching idly as the Nazis marched Jews to gas chambers? That just might offend some Jews. The kindest comment I can make in response is that you're comparing apples and oranges.; 8:26 PM
Rev'd Chris Larimer said...: Josh,

Yes - you got the meaning correctly.

Part of the reason I left the PCUSA is because I saw a lack of leadership in the "evangelical" camp. Some seemed quite content to use the same under-handed power-plays that they complained about when "the liberals" did it. The concern for both true presbyterian representational polity and the abandonment of Reformed soteriology & bibliology (on both sides - one for revisionist heresy and the other for soft Arminianism) forced me to seek ministry elsewhere.

The moderates think that the revisionists are only going to go against the mouth-breathing, woman-hating, Bible-beating conservatives. You're wrong... both the theological and political perspective of the revisionists is totalitarian and will brook no dissent. Judicatories will give way to administrative commissions made up of "right-thinking" people..."just until the crises that threaten to split the denomination are over," Emperor Palpatine will assure you. "Then there will be a restoration to representative polity."

If you believe that, you're either naive, immune to the weight of history & current events, or gladly accepting that future.

As for offending Jews... I don't offend them nearly as much as you think since - unlike your denomination - I think Israel has a right to exist and protect its citizenry (which includes Palestinians that agree with peace).

I do think they get offended when I tell them that apart from Christ they are bound for an eternity under the wrath of God. But then again, most people do. Including some numpty PCUSA ministers.; 8:53 AM
Bill Crawford said...: Play nice guys.

Point 8 - LOL - I'll buy that for a dollar.

Sadly Josh I think you are both right in 98% of what you have written and horribly wrong about a very important 2%.

Propositionalism as part of the covenant life of discipleship is very biblical.

In very brief:

Choose you this day...
Pick up your cross....
Work out your faith...

If I wanted to take the time I could nail down about 20 more such references. I would suggest you read "Why We're Not Emergent: by Two Guys Who Ought to Be" for a good critigue of some of these issues.

And yes - without a real, "Long Obedience In the Same Direction" we do not have disciples or followers. I hate gulit trip conversions as much as you.

However, I have helped many Christians experience confidence in Christ by merely giving them the joy of a firm - "I responded to God's call" moment.

I don't know your experience of Ethiopia specifically I can't recall if it was a conversation, a book, or a long term relationship.

But in my conversation with leaders of churches in India, Egypt, various African nations what I experience again and again is classical christian discipleship that begins with a proposition. What they do so well that we don't is get out there and share Jesus as if lives are on the line - they aren't sitting around debating that issue they also do a wonderful job on the follow up.

I will be traveling to India for two weeks next summer with a family in our church - they are both Indian nationals.

to be continued; 9:50 AM
Bill Crawford said...: Josh,

Thanks for the cogent and thoughtful response. I want to be more thorough in my reply:

1. This is someone we know personally ate lunch with, prayed with, took classes with (at least I did, argued theology). Really if it was me you would be right to think: "What did Bill do now?" but with Brian I find the only first thought should be: "What are those people doing?" I mean Brian actually understand Barth - not an extremest.

2, 3, and 4 - agreed fully

5 is such a bad case of a straw man and false dichotomy argument that I won't even try and address it here. New post coming soon. I would love a source for your assertion that propositionalism is a 16th century construct?

6 don't know where revivals got into this mix. I am likely guilty of reading stuff into what you are presenting as well.

7 the book of acts seems to like quantitative measurement a good deal. remember I pastor a church under 100 members this is again painting a false dichotomy. It is not either faithfulness or growing your church rolls.; 11:33 AM
Josh said...: Chris:

Are you a liberal pretending to be a conservative in order to present a caricature that reinforces negative stereotypes about conservatism? I'm suspicious.

Nazis slaughtered six million Jews; members of the PCUSA have done nothing remotely similar.

I was ready to accept an apology, but it appears none is forthcoming.; 9:24 PM
Josh said...: Bill:

How is quoting a few phrases from the Bible an argument for propositionalism? Scripture is made up of countless phrases strung together into many narratives. How this fact shows that giving mental assent to certain propositional statements makes a person a follower of Jesus eludes me.

I named the 16th century because it was then that the first Presbyterian catechisms (classic examples of propositionalism) were written.; 9:31 PM
Bill Crawford said...: Josh,

God bless you. I'm glad you are having a fine experience in your presbytery. Its really about all there is left to say.; 9:57 PM
Bill Crawford said...: I hate to just throw my arms up and quit.

I think it will be very fruitful to begin a new discussion regarding propositionalism, etc. It is time to end the stream on the situation in the PCUSA because the only things left to say are inappropriate for a blog.

That echo chamber comment - just way out of line.; 10:12 PM
Rev'd Chris Larimer said...: Josh,

How could you out me like that? I'm going to lose all credibility in my infiltration of conservative Anglicanism if anybody finds out!

As for an apology (defense), I gave you one. If you're looking for remorse on likening indifference towards propositions & polity in the PCUSA to indifference towards politics & practice (supported by propositions) in Nazi Germany, I'm afraid you'll find none forth coming. Sorry `bout that.

Bill,

Looking forward to the conversation of propositionalism. Especially since in the PCUSA, faithfulness seems more defined by prepositionalism.; 9:39 AM